Idea Possible? Case (Not Rack) 22-Drive Beast, 21 UnRAID / 1 "Apps"

I've finally saved up enough to build the media NAS I've been wanting for awhile (upgrading from a few DNS-321s), and I think I've been following these forums closely enough for the past few months to decide exactly what I need for my box:

*Case Build (not rackmount - I'm putting this baby in a decently-ventilated closet about 6 feet from where I sleep, so I want to contain sound as best possible)

*21-Drive UnRAID Array (20 2TB, 1 2TB Cache)

*1-Drive "App" Solution (1 1TB SABnzbd, etc. processing drive, using same processor as UnRAID array but remaining completely separate to mitigate risk of software malfunction on one of those programs interfering with UnRAID operations)

Can anyone tell me if this approach will even work?  Or would my "separate" processing drive still run the risk of disrupting, say, an UnRAID parity write / restore operation?

If it's possible and not a bad idea, are 22-drive cases even feasible yet, or am I better off slipping down to a 20-drive, 19 UnRaid configuration?  I've been searching for an answer on this one without much luck...

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help!

See my sig.

It comes down to how much you want to spend, and to some extent, what part of the world you live in.  The Sharkoon Rebel12 Economy (the one used by neilt0) is a behemoth case that can be modified to hold 20+ drives, but it is only easily available in Europe and Australia (where it is branded as iCute).  I believe some forum users in the US were able to obtain some from the German Amazon for around $150 shipped.  The Antec 1200 is more easily available in the US, but it maxes out at 20 drives, though it can hold a few more 2.5" drives.

Perhaps both your App drive and Cache drive could be 2.5" laptop drives.  This means you wouldn't be able to use a full 2 TB drive for a cache drive, as the largest laptop drives are currently 1 TB, but it would save you a lot of space and give you more flexibility on which case you choose.

In my experience, the quietest cases use only internal fans and have doors that seal the front of the case.  You can also line the inside of the case with corkboard, foam, or other sound-absorbing materials.

Your 'separate processing' idea should work.  It will involve manually mounting the app disk (or maybe using SNAP to do it).  Once you figure out the correct syntax, you should be able to add it to your 'go' script and not have to mess with it again.

I also run 22 disks in my case (see sig), a little case modding was necessary by adding a couple of old Antec drive cages. Although my fans are quiet, the drives do make a bit of a racket with heads parking/unparking and drive seeking noises. I don't know which drives are the noisiest, I have all four brand in there. I personally wouldn't want to sleep next to it. If noise is an issue, I would shy away from hot swap solutions. My Cooler Master 4 in 3's are so much quieter and cooler than my Icy Dock 4 in 3's.

OK, my needs have changed substantially since my original post a week ago - I've been bequeathed a mini-tower box that should handle my "app drive" requirements... bringing my sights back down to the original plan for a 20-drive budget box (case).

Of course, now that I'm finally getting around to shopping for my parts, I'm finding that the motherboard from Raj's recommended build (JetWay JHZ03-GT-LF) is EOL'd or OOS, so I'm looking for a budget-minded alternative to the SUPERMICRO MBD-X8SIL-F-O.  Answering Raj's original question, I'm located in California.

Goals are still the same (media server, green drives, 20 total), but I don't need that extra processing power anymore.  Noting that the last update to Raj's lists was in late March (and it sounds from random posts like Raj has been busy moving inter-state himself), I figured I'd come back in here and ask: does anyone have any suggestions for alternate (budget-style) motherboards?

Alternatively (since someone's been whispering in my ear that a couple of 15-drive boxes will be better drive-per-dollar than a 20-drive box now and another 20-drive box later, since I'm already knocking on 20 drives' door but don't see myself passing 30 until after Mayan doomsday), does anyone have alternate proposals for the 15-drive budget box's BIOSTAR A760G M2+ motherboard (media server, green drives, 15 total)?  Also, does anyone else want to try talking me out of a 20-drive box now / another 20-drive box later (if 30 is a more realistic drive ceiling for the next year or two), or am I in the wrong forum for that sort of sense-talking?

Thanks for all of your help so far, neilt0, Raj, and ohlwiler - looking forward to ordering some parts tomorrow and getting started after the holiday!

I'm curious about your whisperer's argument that two 15 drive boxes are more economical than two 20 drive boxes...I'm not sure that is true.  The more drives you put on a single motherboard, power supply, etc. the more efficient your storage network will be.  If the eventual goal is 30 drives, then I would probably either build a 20 drive server today and then a small 10 drive server later, or possibly build something that could be expanded to 30 drives within a single box in hopes that unRAID will support 30+ drives before I need that many.  In the meantime, you could also run 22 drives in an unRAID array and then 8 drives added via SNAP.

I'll be updating my prototype builds thread later today.  My replacement boards at the moment are:

20+ drive budget board: Supermicro C2SEA - not the cheapest budget board, but an old standby and well vetted in this community.

15 drive budget board: JetWay JMA3-880GTV2-LF - I just finished burning this board in, it is fully compatible with unRAID as far as I can tell (level 1 tested, though I haven't posted my results yet).  When I purchased it it was $59.99 with free shipping, so you might want to wait for a sale to pick this one up.

Again, check my prototype builds thread later today for full build specs using these boards.

Another possibility is expanding to another case and in the other case use eSATA connectors or port multipliers.

The addonics 5 port multipliers on a PCI bracket could support a number of drives in another case.

The real issue is space, power and how much do you need to be online and accessible in a moments notice.

If I needed 30 Drives of storage I might put 15 drives in one machine that was on most of the time and the other 15 drives in a separate machine that I could turn off and on when needed.

Even if the drives are in standby, chances are they are pulling energy that is not needed.

I do have 20+ drives in an older CM Stacker.

I use the PCI Slot rafter for a few 2.5" drives and an SSD.

Plus another bracket that just lays at the bottom with a few 3.5" drives.

In addition, I have the NS520G with 3 additional external 5 Drive units on a shelf.

This is my backup solution in case the CM stacker has issues and I need to move the drives to somewhere else.

I've often thought of reworking my system to a smaller 5 drive setup of my most needed data (Music, source, images, etc, etc). and keeping the rest of the data(movies) to the larger machine.

I can't thank you guys enough for the ideas and guidance.

My friend pushing for two boxes doesn't really understand how unRAID parity works (of course, neither do I, but that's not stopping me from building a box!), and I think some of his suggestion stems from my desire to keep pre-hard drive costs as close to the $1,000 neighborhood as possible (but I'll be able to put in about that same amount all over again in a few month's time).

The more I dig through builds (and learn about the Norco 4224), the more I'm leaning back towards a "monster" box (and even back towards my non-array "apps" drive I mentioned in my initial post, at least until unRAID actively supports 24 in the array).

The Norco 4224 gives me one unique problem, though - I have no idea whether the case will work in my closet.  I could probably find a different spot in my apartment and run a hefty Ethernet cable as needed, but I'd really like this sucker in the spot where my existing D-Link DNS-321 "array" resides if at all possible.

I've been digging for answers on this without much luck: I know that the Norco 4224 needs to "breathe" on the back end, but no one seems to have any idea exactly how much "breathing space" is needed.  I just measured the closet, and I have between 22 and 23 inches of depth with which I can play... What do you guys think?  Disaster waiting to happen?  I'd be placing it on a glass-top stand designed to hold up to 140lbs of television - are rackmount cases without racks more "trouble" on some surfaces than others?

I think I could start building a 24-drive beast within my budget in the next couple of weeks if I feel comfortable sticking it in the closet, but I'll need to do some serious thinking about my apartment layout otherwise... I'm not sure the $400-$500 premium I'd be paying to build a case (with 5-in-3s) is worth it for the convenience of keeping all of my "computer stuff" hidden away in the same closet, so I'd say my heart is 80% set on the Norco 4224 approach for the time being.

I can't remember the last time I second-guessed myself this much on a project of any kind... This forum's title has it right on the money!

according to newegg the dimensions are 25.5" x 19.0" x 7.0"

I would assume 25.5" deep.

The other point to consider is how do you exhaust the heat out of the closet.

I have a 20 drive beast in my computer room alongside a few other machins and I can tell you that 20ft by 10ft room gets hot!

I run a fan in one of the windows as exhaust and the room still gets hot.

Well, there goes that idea...  I think you're right on the depth, as some web research suggests the average rack is 19" WIDE.

Back to the drawing board - something tells me I'm going to end up spending $1500 on parts and someone else's labor for a tower-based solution, because the more I'm looking into the mods required for a decent 20-drive case, the less I'm thinking I'll be able to handle them without much trouble.  I'm going to walk through some of these new "photo illustration" build threads that keep popping up before I make my final decision, but I'm getting closer and closer to just spending a premium and having an expert put one together for me.

This sucks, because I really had my heart set on that 4224 once I started warming up to the idea... I'm not even sure if I could put it somewhere else in my apartment based on heat warnings like those!

This sucks, because I really had my heart set on that 4224 once I started warming up to the idea... I'm not even sure if I could put it somewhere else in my apartment based on heat warnings like those!

He did mention having several computers together in that room.

Having an unRAID box with a low wattage CPU sitting mostly idle with most of its drives spun down isn't going to generate massive amounts of heat - not something you want to stick in an unventilated cupboard though.

Good point, ConnectivIT - I can't ever see more than two drives spun up simultaneously in this pure-media box, and 90% of the time it'll probably only be one.

Here's what I'm planning to shop for this week - basically Raj's 20-drive beast with some tweaks - unless anyone successfully steers me in a different direction (it'll be hard thanks to these prototypes' pedigree, but I'm wide open on any part: one of my biggest requirements is "no garage work"... I'll be putting this sucker together in a relatively tight apartment, and although I'm sure I can manage the C-Clamp method here, pretty much anything else is going to kill me - except maybe the fan swap on the Norco 5-in-3s, but I'm doing a little more deep research on that process before committing there):

Mobo: SUPERMICRO MBD-X8SIL-F-O

CPU: Intel i3 540 Clarkdale (the i3 530 and i3 550 are fine too, choose based on price and availability)

RAM: Kingston 4GB DDR3 1333

PSU: CORSAIR Enthusiast Series TX650 V2 650W

Case: Antec 1200

Drive Cages: Norco SS-500 x 4

SATA Expansion Cards: Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 8-Port SAS/SATA Add-on Card x 2

Cables: 0.5m 30AWG Internal Mini SAS 36pin (SFF-8087) Male w/ Latch to SATA 7pin Female (x4) Forward Breakout Cable x 4

Non-Array App Drive: 128gb SSD (Fast, willing to splurge a little here - reading reviews today, suggestions really appreciated)

Parity Drive: WDEARS20 (Have one of these unopened, unused lying around)

unRAID Drive #1: WDEARS20 (Have one of these unopened, unused lying around)

unRAID Drives #2-8: WDEARS20 (Have seven of these previously used and formatted for D-Link DNS-321s, but would like to recycle for this project)

UPS: (Do I need a 650W supply here?  I wouldn't think so, continuous usage and all, but I'm looking into this angle today as well)

Any thoughts from you more experienced builders are greatly appreciated... if this goes as smoothly as I think it might (after a LOT of research and thanks to your trailblazing posts), I'll probably be building another one before long - even if I don't need the space!  I haven't had this much fun putting something together in a good long while.  One nagging question - will adding even one additional 2.5" to the equation necessitate a bigger-than-650W PSU?

EDIT: Also, just realized that I may not be understanding part of the process - Raj mentions an App Drive AND a Cache Drive.  I was starting to think that the two terms were interchangeable, but if I need both, will SSDs fly for each?

I think a 128 SSD is a little small for use as an apps drive. I use a 1T. hard drive as my cache drive and run my apps off that.

The UPS should to be sized to supply the power that the power supply will draw from the wall when all drives are spun up so about 650 watts / 80 percent efficiency or about 800 watts or so.

I'd also use RAM from the Supermicro "Tested Memory List"

I have 22 drives on that same power supply with no problems. All of your drives are WD, which use average current to start up. (Seagates use the most).

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/1tb-2tb-roundup-2_16.html#sect0

Looks like it will be a great build.

Trim isn't supported in reiserfs is it?  I think you would need to use ext4 to get the best performance (unless the file system is pretty much read only).

Too bad that the Norco rackmount case won't work for you.  In the 20 Drive Beast Tower build you cited, the RAM I link to is on the approved memory list for that board.  Supermicro doesn't list it, but Kingston does, and I can vouch for it personally as well.

The 650W PSU will be fine to run one or two SSDs as well, SSDs use very little power.  The only reason you would need to upgrade the PSU is if you wanted to run a significant amount (maybe 3 or more) of 7200 RPM drives in a server otherwise full of green drives.

A 'cache' drive is an official unRAID term that refers to a drive that unRAID recognizes as being part of the server but outside the parity-protected array.  An 'app' drive is an unofficial term that refers to any drive on which you run apps or non-unRAID software.  It is quite common for a cache drive to serve as an app drive as well - double duty, so to speak.  However, you can also have two separate drives for the purpose, if you wish.  Either way, the app parition (whether it be a secondary partition on the cache drive or a primary partition on another drive) will have to be mounted manually using SNAP or unMenu, as unRAID won't touch it.  It is also possible to run apps from hidden folders on the cache drive, without the need for extra partitions.  This is probably the simplest solution, but it won't work for more sophisticated add-ons that might require multiple file systems and/or partitions.

Even without trim, an SSD used as an unRAID cache drive should last 2 - 3 years under normal use (defined as something like 10 GB of read/write per day).  I figure by then you'll want something faster and bigger anyway, so no big deal if it dies.  If you are using a separate apps drive then you can use whatever file system you want (I believe NTFS, Fat, HFS, ext3/4 are all supported), but the official unRAID cache drive must use ReiserFS for its primary partition.  Secondary partitions can use other file systems.

As for SSDs, I'm a fan of many of the offerings from Kingston and OCZ.  The OCZ Vertex II happens to be on sale for $145 after MIR right now, so I would probably jump on that.  The only one I would not recommend is the OCZ RevoDrive, as it doesn't have any proper linux drivers.  Works great on Windows, though...

longevity isn't the issue.  Write speed will likely be poor, Trim erases free space in the background, allowing it to be rewritten quickly. 

Basically write speed deteriorates as you delete files and re-use 'free' space.

Someone cleverer than me explains it better on wikipedia! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIM

No, Chris, there would definitely be plenty of writes hitting that thing... TRIM-less SSD won't give me the butter-smooth speeds I was dreaming of, so a cheaper non-SSD 2.5" drive will probably do the trick... but now I'm driving myself crazy trying to figure out where it will go in the case before pulling the trigger on all of these parts.  

Raj, thank you again for all of your help and inspiration - I'm looking at multiple images of the Antec 1200 interior, though, and I can't for the life of me determine where an extra 2.5" drive (in addition to the 4 3x5 drive cages I'm shoving in there) will fit, much less two of them...  Will those extra drives require some sort of hardware modification to the case itself?

One other question (which may highlight my ignorance, but here goes anyway) - with 6 SATA ports on the mobo I'm considering and 16 expansion ports via 2 add-on cards (which I presume will take up 2 of those 6 mobo ports, leaving me with 4 + 16 slots for 20 connections), will I need another add-on card to allow a 21st disk (2.5") for caching (or two-disk cache/app-outside-array solution)?

Reading around it seems you need an SSD with Garbage Collection,  this basically does the job of Trim in the background when the drive isn't in use, although if you really do have a shed load of writes and deletes going on..... performance will suffer as there will be no time for Garbage Collection to occur.

I believe the 2.5" drive mounts here, in the bottom of the case:

There are four screw holes there, and the case should ship with custom screws and silicon grommets that fit them...at least all the Antec 902 cases I've used have included those.  Some SSDs also come with 2.5" to 3.5" mounts, which will let you mount the SSD in any normal HDD slot (though not in a hot swap bay).  You would also remove all of the drive cages that come with the case.  The GreenLeaf site has some pictures of a 20 Drive build using the Antec 1200 that might give you a better idea of your own.  Specifically look at the 20 Drive Pro Tower Black.

The SATA expansion cards that we generally use in unRAID servers use the PCIe interface, not SATA ports.  Therefore, all 6 of your motherboard's SATA ports will be available, in addition to your 16 ports via SATA expansion cards.

OK, here goes - I'm pulling the trigger on this build tonight, and the last of the parts should hopefully be in my hands by the middle of next week.

From the looks of that image (and the helpful photo shoot on the GreenLeaf site), although I'd considered simply using an old 3.5" 1TB for the cache drive until I got close to filling up my 20 slots, I'd probably be better off putting that 2.5" 1TB cache drive in there BEFORE I put in the drive cages... which means that sucker's on the order list, too (unless anyone with hands-on experience chimes in tonight and says "nah, just as easy to put in once all the cages and wires are in as it would be when you're first building the box").

One last pre-trigger question: does anyone have any suggestions for an affordable, reliable 800W UPS, which ohlweiler suggests this build will require for safety's sake?

Again, I can't thank all of you enough!  I hope you don't regret your helpful suggestions that locked me into the unRAID mindset when I come back here trying to figure out what I've done wrong...

You don't need an 800W PSU.  I recommend this 650W PSU.  53A on the single +12V rail.  You are looking at using 22 green drives at about 2A each (and WDEARS use even less than that), so 44A needed there.  That gives you plenty of headroom to run the motherboard, fans, a couple SSDs/laptop drives, and maybe even one or two 7200 RPM drives as well.

I believe that it is easy to install a 2.5" drive once the drive cage is already installed.  The screws enter from the bottom of the case, so you would just need enough room to plug in the cables inside the case.  If you plugged in the cables first and then screwed the drive in then I think it should be pretty easy.  I haven't actually done it myself, though.

I like this PCI Slot holder for a cache/apps drive.

SYBA SY-MRA25018 Mobile Rack for 2.5" SATA HDD, via PCI Slot, Black Color, RoHS

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817998079

I plan to use an SSD for my apps drive. but I also plan to use ext4 as it is supposed to support trim.

However, I'm not beyond recommending a Seagate Momentus XT hybrid drive as a combined cache/apps drive.

All depends on what you plan to do.

In my environment i use the Areca ARC-1200 for 2 drives set up as RAID0 Parity, RAID1 cache.

This weekend I add the slot loading 2.5" rack for the APPS drive and move the apps files off the RAID1 cache drive.

In my case, I use NFS to mount certain /home directories from an area on the cache.

I want them to 100% immediately available without any spin up delay.

I also plan to setup grub so that I boot from the SSD at lightning speed rather then the USB key speed.

(but this is only for booting).

I love these drives. High speed cached ssd reads.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148591&Tpk=momentus%20XT

Would make a great apps drive unless you are 100% set on an SSD (like I am).

But for middle of the road, high speed, small footprint these cannot be beat.

I've switched out all my laptop boot drives to these.

Thanks for all of the help!

My Antec-1200 arrived on Friday, but my C-Clamp hasn't made it in yet - which made this weekend crawl by, just looking at that beast sitting in my corner with nothing to do.

Box one of raw materials is on the truck for delivery today, box two should be here tomorrow, and my c-clamp should be here "no later than July 20," so I'm almost set!

Raj - I basically ordered your "20-Drive Beast (Tower)" parts list from your main post, so I think I'm good on PSU... I actually should've spelled out my request, since I was asking about an Uninterrupted Power Supply.  I've had people tell me that my UPS doesn't need to carry any more wattage than my PSU draws at max, but ohlweiler had previously posted that an 800W UPS would be a good idea for my 650W PSU.  Do you have any suggestions for UPS brand in general, or more specific wattage requirements for that "20-Drive Beast (Tower)" build?

Weebo - That mobile rack looks perfect... something about screwing a drive directly into the bottom of the case doesn't feel right to me, but I'm sure it's perfectly safe (and even designed for it, apparently!)  I'll be looking more and more into unRAID Apps this week as I'm building the hardware for the meat & potatoes - my main array (I really can't wait to start transferring data from my old, separated NAS system).  Once I've transferred over all of the old data, the I'll primarily be using my Cache (and then possibly a 2.5" hybrid Apps drive like you've posted below) for semi-regular SABnzbd processing and AirPlay, along with any more bells and whistles that pop out at me during my research.

It's just a matter of days now... One more question, since I've seen it repeated a few times in my searches but haven't seen a full-illustration answer yet: is there a "C-Clamp Method for Dummies" YouTube video or similar instruction set?  I've seen the ascii drawings, and they sort of make sense, but I'd hate to irreparably damage my new box trying to learn as I go...

Thanks again, everyone!

I like these: APC Back-UPS Pro.  The BR1000G should be well suited for your server.

There's no tutorial for the c-clamp method, but it isn't too difficult.  You just position the clamp over the metal tab and tighten the clamp until the tab folds flat.  It will scratch up the interior of the case a bit, but nothing that you'll see with the case side installed.