abq-pete Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 I am planning to migrate my existing system to the Norco RPC-4020. What I cannot determine from the pictures available is how does the air flow from the drive sleds to the 5-fan middle plane? It seems that the SATA backplane is covering the entire rear of where the drives are mounted without a visible pass-thru for air. Whatever vents there might be could not be very efficient. Is this true? So far I've read that replacing the fans, blocking some holes, and blocking unused drive bays has improved the temperature issues. I am wondering if more can be done. 1. Is it possible to remove the SATA backplane and run the SATA cables directly from the mounted drives to the controllers on the motherboard? 2. Has anyone tried modifying the fan plane to accommodate 120mm fans instead of the 80mm? Thanks and regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
bubbaQ Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 IIRC, the backplanes consist of PC boards, about an inch high, that run from side to side... so all the drives in the same horizontal level are on the same backplane. Airflow it tight, but the cracks above and below each 1 inch backplane leave area for (some) air to flow. The *key* to proper drive cooling in such a case it to make sure penetrations in the middle partition that houses the fans, are sealed up tight so air can not pass from the back of the case around to the front, or else the fans will just recirculate the air that way rather than pull it in over the drives. Also put some foam weatherstripping from the hardware store on the top of the partition so it seals tight against the top of the case. Bladed fans work well in free air -- but loose efficiency very quickly when airflow is restricted. Quote Link to comment
NAS Posted December 26, 2008 Share Posted December 26, 2008 ... The *key* to proper drive cooling in such a case it to make sure penetrations in the middle partition that houses the fans, are sealed up tight so air can not pass from the back of the case around to the front... Quoted to add some emphasis on such an astute point. Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 26, 2008 Author Share Posted December 26, 2008 IIRC, the backplanes consist of PC boards, about an inch high, that run from side to side... so all the drives in the same horizontal level are on the same backplane. Airflow it tight, but the cracks above and below each 1 inch backplane leave area for (some) air to flow. The *key* to proper drive cooling in such a case it to make sure penetrations in the middle partition that houses the fans, are sealed up tight so air can not pass from the back of the case around to the front, or else the fans will just recirculate the air that way rather than pull it in over the drives. Also put some foam weatherstripping from the hardware store on the top of the partition so it seals tight against the top of the case. Bladed fans work well in free air -- but loose efficiency very quickly when airflow is restricted. There seem to be different versions of backplanes available (used) based on further research. I hope they are all as you describe. I will try your suggestions as soon as the unit arrives. If it gives me similar performance (thermally speaking) to what I have with my Stacker 810 with 4-in-3 (120mm fans), then I will be happy. Otherwise, I am prepared to start with replacing fans, removing the backplane and going to direct wiring, and/or modifying the fan plane with 120mm units. On a side note, I tested my Intel Bad Axe2 motherboard (D975XBX2KR) motherboard for unRAID usage and it works fine. What makes it interesting is that it has 8 onboard SATA with 3 PCI-E slots (x16,x8,x4). Using 3 Adaptec 1430SA 4x PCI-E cards, I can achieve the 20 drive support needed to fill this case. Now just have to wait for Tom to release that new Pro version... Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 26, 2008 Author Share Posted December 26, 2008 ... The *key* to proper drive cooling in such a case it to make sure penetrations in the middle partition that houses the fans, are sealed up tight so air can not pass from the back of the case around to the front... Quoted to add some emphasis on such an astute point. Yup. So noted! Order has been placed so I should have the kit here in a few days... Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
bubbaQ Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 I wouldn't remove the backplanes and direct wire unless airflow was REALLY bad... but I might remove the backplanes, break out a Dremel to grind away some unused areas of PCB, and reinstall them. Might even add some epoxy or fiberglass resin to stiffen up some weak areas after the grinding. Radial fans (blowers) work better against restricted airflow (head) than axial fans. For testing purposes, I usually cut a piece of cardboard or posterboard to cover the top of the case from the middle partition to the front, so I can test airflow with the intake restricted to the drive cages. Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 I wouldn't remove the backplanes and direct wire unless airflow was REALLY bad... but I might remove the backplanes, break out a Dremel to grind away some unused areas of PCB, and reinstall them. Might even add some epoxy or fiberglass resin to stiffen up some weak areas after the grinding. Radial fans (blowers) work better against restricted airflow (head) than axial fans. For testing purposes, I usually cut a piece of cardboard or posterboard to cover the top of the case from the middle partition to the front, so I can test airflow with the intake restricted to the drive cages. Dremel + PCB = :'( Given the choice, I would go with removal rather than trimming the PCB! With regards to radial fans, I was not able to find any that are appropriate to computer case usage. Can you point me in the proper direction? Thank you. I will use your tips and tricks. Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
bubbaQ Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 I wouldn't plan to use radial fans just yet. As you said, they are hard to find... particularly in a particular size and mounting configuration. See what you accomplish with the stock axial fans first A stick of incense works well for a smoker to visualize airflow. Quote Link to comment
subcodec Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 Here is what the backplane looks like on mine. I got this from Newegg about 2 months ago. Quote Link to comment
JonathanM Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 With regards to radial fans, I was not able to find any that are appropriate to computer case usage. Can you point me in the proper direction? I've used this type before. http://www.compuplus.com/i-StarTechcom-Heavy-Duty-PC-Case-Computer-FanVideo-Card-Cooler-FANCASE-1000151~.html?sid=014e8j8325p03yi Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 I wouldn't plan to use radial fans just yet. As you said, they are hard to find... particularly in a particular size and mounting configuration. See what you accomplish with the stock axial fans first A stick of incense works well for a smoker to visualize airflow. That's a great idea on the usage of incense. Thanks! Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 Here is what the backplane looks like on mine. I got this from Newegg about 2 months ago. Thanks much for the pic. This is yet another version of the backplane I've seen. Yours seems to have both SATA and SAS connections. I also ordered mine from Newegg and it will be here on Tuesday. I noticed that you have not done any modifications such as blocking of holes and such. Do you find the ventilation adequate? Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 27, 2008 Author Share Posted December 27, 2008 I've used this type before. http://www.compuplus.com/i-StarTechcom-Heavy-Duty-PC-Case-Computer-FanVideo-Card-Cooler-FANCASE-1000151~.html?sid=014e8j8325p03yi Hmmm. I actually have one of those. But that could not be used as a replacement for the fan plane fans. I hope the upgrading of the existing axial fans with better quality units will produce good results. Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
bubbaQ Posted December 27, 2008 Share Posted December 27, 2008 When you want to use a radial blower fan in a location that was designed for an axial fan, use a fan adapter like this: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/clfanad80to9.html Glue the 92mm side to the flat intake face of the radial fan... then you can mount the other side of the adapter to the case conventionally. Even better, you can get a fan adapter that also swings the fan 45 degrees so the output from the blower is more toward the rear of the case. BTW, that particular blower fan will not give good performance... the 34 cfm is rated at 0 head. Plus the width of the fan is the same as a single PC slot. There is a different one, I can't find right now, that takes up 2 slots, and gives much better performance. Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 28, 2008 Author Share Posted December 28, 2008 I'm wondering if using the 92mm adapters is even possible given the tight spacing on the fan plane. I ll get one and see how it works. If they fit, I also have the option of replacing the 80mm with 92mm. Here's a 2 slot fan: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835888309 Also thanks everyone for their input / information thus far. I am hoping this upgrade will last me a while! Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
bubbaQ Posted December 28, 2008 Share Posted December 28, 2008 You can use the 80-to-80, or 80-to-anything.. even a smaller 80-to-70. It doesn't' matter as the intake of a blower is much smaller than its diameter. And you would mount the adapters/fans on the OPPOSITE side of the partition, to save space, since they have to have the exhaust to the rear of the case. Or, if you don't go with blowers, you could even use an 80-to-120 fan adapter on fan location 2 and 4 and then replace those two fans with 120mm fans. Be *sure* you cover those holes in the bottom of the partition after you run all your power and drive cables through it.... if you don't you will have massive recirculation. Make sure you have good exhaust out the back of the case. While you can't do much about the suction head from the resistance in the front, you can help a lot by eliminating any static head on the back side. Again, I would thoroughly test air flow with stock fans before I went to a plan B. Quote Link to comment
WeeboTech Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 FWIW, I've used these fans in certain installations with decent results, Not sure of clearance within the norco case, It might be worth a review. 90MM fan in an 80MM mounting. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999348 Quote Link to comment
subcodec Posted December 29, 2008 Share Posted December 29, 2008 I don't have to worry much about good airflow in my Norco case since the setup is kept in the basement. For general use, my hard drive temps are in the 20's. When I do a parity check, they get up to the mid to upper 30's. I feel the airflow through the case is pretty good anyways. Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 You can use the 80-to-80, or 80-to-anything.. even a smaller 80-to-70. It doesn't' matter as the intake of a blower is much smaller than its diameter. And you would mount the adapters/fans on the OPPOSITE side of the partition, to save space, since they have to have the exhaust to the rear of the case. Or, if you don't go with blowers, you could even use an 80-to-120 fan adapter on fan location 2 and 4 and then replace those two fans with 120mm fans. Be *sure* you cover those holes in the bottom of the partition after you run all your power and drive cables through it.... if you don't you will have massive recirculation. Make sure you have good exhaust out the back of the case. While you can't do much about the suction head from the resistance in the front, you can help a lot by eliminating any static head on the back side. Again, I would thoroughly test air flow with stock fans before I went to a plan B. Those adapters open up a lot of options. Thanks for bringing them to my attention. I will try it at stock configuration to compare temps to my CM810 Stacker with the 120mm fans blowing on each 4-in-3 module. Currently I get temps in the low 20s idling and mid to upper 20s under load. This is with WD Greenpower drives. Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 FWIW, I've used these fans in certain installations with decent results, Not sure of clearance within the norco case, It might be worth a review. 90MM fan in an 80MM mounting. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999348 Wow, there are so many options. I was at Fry's Electronics today and must have spent 20 minutes at the fan / cooling section. They've a large selection of fans and such. I will be giving them a try later on. Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted December 30, 2008 Author Share Posted December 30, 2008 I don't have to worry much about good airflow in my Norco case since the setup is kept in the basement. For general use, my hard drive temps are in the 20's. When I do a parity check, they get up to the mid to upper 30's. I feel the airflow through the case is pretty good anyways. I am hoping to have the same results as you but just looking at the airflow layout worries me. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Besides, it gives me something to tinker with. Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
dhy8386 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 ... The *key* to proper drive cooling in such a case it to make sure penetrations in the middle partition that houses the fans, are sealed up tight so air can not pass from the back of the case around to the front... Quoted to add some emphasis on such an astute point. Yup. So noted! Order has been placed so I should have the kit here in a few days... Regards, Peter Peter, Did you test all the SATA ports on that use the Marvell chipset? Of the 8, 4 use iintel and 4 use marvell including the esata capable port. Just curious cause I have read about various problems between marvell and the linux kernel and I want to build a server with this board Quote Link to comment
abq-pete Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 All 8 ports work fine. I am running with 4.4. I have yet to test with 4.5B1. I will try that sometime next week. Regards, Peter Quote Link to comment
jesseasi Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 I am currently building my first unraid system and I am using the Norco 4020. Based on everything I can find and read about this case - I have started some mods to keep it cooler and quiet. I found some thermaltake fans that have their own heat sensors. At 20C they run at like 1400RPM are completely silent. As the temperature goes up they speed up. I replaced all 7 fans in the Norco 4020 with these. I also used some aluminum duct tape to seal off the two open bays on the fan mount. Once I am up and running I will be happy to report my findings. But I do have some questions for the Norco 4020 users. What do you do with the extra bays? I am trying to configure my unraid system so that as my need for space grows I can just continue to add drives. I have build everything following the same parts used in the lime-technology servers. Supermicro board, two adaptec controllers. I plan to use a cache drive + parity drive + 15 array drives. I believe that means I need at least 17 controller ports. Question: Should I go ahead and wire up and get ports ready for the 3 remaining bays? Will there be additional drive support added in the future. If not - what are the rest of you doing with these bays? Quote Link to comment
bubbaQ Posted January 9, 2009 Share Posted January 9, 2009 The problem is that an overheating drive will not heat up the air enough to make the Thermaltake fans speed up. Those fans are ON for an exhaust fan on a case, where the main heat source ITSELF (i.e. the CPU or GPU) have active cooling, because they transfer the heat from the chip to the air in the case, so the air in the case will heat up and the exhaust fan will speed up. Plus you have those fans in front of the CPU (related to airflow) so an overheating CPU or mobo will also not increase the speed of the 5 fans on the fan partition. The real solution is to monitor HD temps, and vary the speed of the fans based on HD temp. Unfortunately this generally requires some software (like lm_sensors and fancontrol) and some significant tinkering. After you get this system built, I would carefully watch drive temps on the first parity build. Quote Link to comment
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