fc0712

Let's complain about the LT release process

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34 minutes ago, fc0712 said:

Any estimates, when 6.4 will be released? 

Considering it sounds like they're still in process of developing features for it, it'll be a while longer than even the typical Soon ™.

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7 hours ago, BRiT said:

Considering it sounds like they're still in process of developing features for it, it'll be a while longer than even the typical Soon ™.

The version in question is named RC14.


A release candidate really should be a version that has 100% of the code developed and in code freeze.
And because of code freeze, only changes allowed are bug fixes that are explicitly decided to be included in the final release.

 

Sounds more like LT is using the RC term when they actually mean beta or pre-release.

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2 hours ago, pwm said:

The version in question is named RC14.


A release candidate really should be a version that has 100% of the code developed and in code freeze.
And because of code freeze, only changes allowed are bug fixes that are explicitly decided to be included in the final release.

 

Sounds more like LT is using the RC term when they actually mean beta or pre-release.

 

Welcome to the LT world ;-)

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3 hours ago, pwm said:

Sounds more like LT is using the RC term when they actually mean beta or pre-release.

 

Does it actually matter what they call it though? The point is they're making the software available for people to try.

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One of the problems is that when the beta releases have solved most of the major issues, they move onto the rc phase.  What happens at that point is that a lot more folks come on-board and they find a LOT of other nagging problems that are usually not deal breakers from an operational standpoint.   (Let's be honest, most software companies at this point generally just call it 'stable' and release as a finished product---  I have seen companies that never fix some operational issue that they have acknowledged before they release the next version with those same issues still not fixed--- and they charge for each release!!!)  LT tries to address these issues and fix them before before they release the next version.

 

Let's be honest, they can't win!  If they continue to address issues and incorporate some code changes in this rc phase, someone is complaining that they are not following some arbitrary definition for the rc process.  They don't make these changes that they feel are necessary, they are castrated for releasing buggy, half-baked software.  I personally prefer that they continue development until they are truly satisfied with the code. I know that it takes a bit longer but it is better for vast majority of users.  

 

IF you are really unhappy with the long release cycle and need a feature that is coming in the next stable version, you can wait until about rc7 to jump on board.  Most of the things that come after that point are largely cosmetic at that point. 

Edited by Frank1940
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No one has issues with code changes for fixing bugs, so stop trying to make it seem like that's the case.

 

Someone else merely pointed out that adding new functionality/features isn't typical for a standard "Release Candidate" stage. However, the long time consumers here know that LT's 'process' isn't standard.

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12 hours ago, John_M said:

 

Does it actually matter what they call it though? The point is they're making the software available for people to try.

Actually, the naming does matter.

 

Release candidate means "we think this might actually be our final release, unless some unforseen problems pops up" and represent a quality stamp.

 

Beta means "remember all isn't coded yet, and there remains lots of testing and even potential redesigns" and represents a warning to the user.

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No - argumenting about the meaning of release candidate for the customers/users who owns the data stored on the machines and are the ones who will get hurt in case of a critical problem.

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Why would you put anything important on a system that is running something labeled as release candidate?

 

"Here you go sir, this kid's car seat is our model 4 release candidate 12. Let us know how it goes for you.... the"re might be a few issues we have yet to uncover, but we think it's good to go..."

 

"Who is here for their release candidate #7 flu shot?? Please raise your hand."

 

"And the new avionics control system of the 787 dream-liner is currently running RC 45 of of our proprietary system, but we can still use it for commercial public transportation."

 

 

move along....

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I'm hoping for 6.4 to be released when it's ready.  You want a constant cycle go buy an iphone.

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I guess my question would have to be does it matter? Install an RC or not to install an RC should be your question. I'm running the latest RC and I haven't noticed any issues. 

 

If your waiting for a Final opposed to an RC the only difference is the name. :D

If there are any undiscovered bugs in an RC they will be the same bugs that will be found in a final. 

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13 hours ago, kizer said:

I guess my question would have to be does it matter? Install an RC or not to install an RC should be your question. I'm running the latest RC and I haven't noticed any issues. 

 

If your waiting for a Final opposed to an RC the only difference is the name. :D

If there are any undiscovered bugs in an RC they will be the same bugs that will be found in a final. 

You are forgetting that there are no ongoing development in an RC - the LT releases are beta, i.e. work-in-progress and not "we are evaluating the feedback from the tests and then we decide if this actual code will be our final release".

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On 12/3/2017 at 3:57 AM, pwm said:

The version in question is named RC14.


A release candidate really should be a version that has 100% of the code developed and in code freeze.
And because of code freeze, only changes allowed are bug fixes that are explicitly decided to be included in the final release.

 

Sounds more like LT is using the RC term when they actually mean beta or pre-release.

 

LT have always maintained that their definition of RC is "Real Close".

 

The mistake many make is to try and enforce some arbitrary approach to release schedules.  LT have done it their way for as long as I can remember (4.x user) and other than some users getting frustrated, there hasn't been any major issue.

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Over the years, there have been quite a number of support threads indicating that users have been running rc versions as if RC means Release Candidate - and then needed quite a lot of support to get their systems up and running again. And not always without data loss.

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Given the standard industry conventions around an RC - I'd prefer there were fewer changes, no new features, focus on bug fixes and stabilization.  The current RC definitely still feels like a beta :(.

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The only reason I can figure out for LT year-after-year using the term RC is that they want more people to test new intermediate releases of the software. And to sometimes move focus away from the sometimes quite long time between final releases by implying that the final release is quite near in time - and that the users already have access to "almost" the final release.

 

But strictly speaking, it's only good for LT if beta testing is performed strictly by people who have a reasonable amount of skills. And in general, quite a lot of people tends to be willing to run beta software - quite often because of the ability to get access to "inside information" earlier than normal users. So I'm not convinced RC really is needed to get enough beta testers. If we assume that LT loses 20% testers by calling beta versions beta, then the majority of these are people LT don't want to run beta software. Either because the data is extremely critical, in which case the backlash of an oops will be big. Or because the people doesn't have the skill to understand the functionality of a Linux system, how to analyze/repair, run command-line tools etc. And it stops new users from jumping directly to beta versions and ending up in support threads.

 

In the end - what is best for Limes customers is also what is generally best for LT. And what is best for LT is normally what is best for the end users. So people who argues that LT has historically used RC version names etc for beta software are actually arguing against both their own and LT:s best interests. Well-informed users and testers given as representative information as possible really is really something to strive for.

 

In the end, it really isn't helping anyone to use RC to mean anything else than the classical definition of "release candidate".

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When Google introduced a different version numbering scheme for Chrome releases by incrementing the first (major) number, the whole world was screaming they didn't follow existing conventions. And this was "not done". Google simply answered "a number is just a number" and continued their way. Today other browser makers follow the same numbering "standard".

 

I would say "a name is just a name" and long term UNRAID users know exactly what they can expect. Besides that Limetech did explain at some point their release strategy, can't find the link atm.

 

There will always be people who want to test regardless how it's called, and people who only install "official" versions.

 

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I would say that beta, RC, and even final should all be treated with some degree of skepticism. When a release comes out, you really need to monitor the early adopter.comments.

 

I prefer the term stable. If a beta, RC, or release comes out and 2 days later a fixed version comes out, that was not a stable version!

 

If you watch closely, you'll see a version come out, say beta 1, and you'll probably see 2-4 versions come out quickly addressing various user issues/comments in rapid succession. Then there will be a longer pause. Assuming there are no critical bugs that affect you, this is a stable release and if it has features you want, this is s good one to install. Whether you wait 2, 4, 6, or other weeks of a release being "out there" depends on your risk tolerance. And as I said, knowing issues people have found (which may be very important to some people, and irrelevant to others) is very important before installing a new version).

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As a software developer myself, I think that using the RC naming convention here is very misleading.

 

- A release candidate is supposed to be a version that will become the final release unless significant bugs are discovered.  No new features should be added.

- People can assume the RC has been well tested and should generally be safe to use.

- Seeing a product with 15 real release candidates would make me lose faith in the skill set of the developers and the QA process.  That's a lot of bugs for a product that should be in a code freeze.

 

Block level encryption support (a huge feature) was not even introduced introduced until RC8.  What Limetech is releasing are betas.  There is nothing wrong with releasing betas, but please call them betas so that people who would normally wait for an RC don't install them.

Edited by ksarnelli

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All software is beta.

 

Taken as a whole, the 6.4's prior to RC9 was "beta".  Everything after is legitimate "RC's" as being termed here.

 

Beyond that, and the intermittent VM issues on RC15 and the continuing Ryzen issues (out of LT's control), 6.4 RCx is more "stable" than 6.3.5

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